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> New Hours Of Service Rule, Split sleeper changes to 8 hour!
Don Jones
post Aug 25 2005, 03:12 AM
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John,

On Friday August 19, 2005, FMCSA announced a new Hours Of Service Rule. A copy of FMCSA's Summary of Changes is below:

"Hours-of-Service Regulations - Effective October 1, 2005



The Hours-of-Service regulations (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations, 49 CFR, Part 395) were revised in August 2005. See a summary of the rule changes below.

PLEASE NOTE: These new HOS regulations for property carriers and drivers take effect October 1, 2005. Until then, the 2003 HOS regulations remain in effect.

For questions concerning the new Hours-of-Service regulations, please contact your State's Division Office.


HOS Reference Materials

Frequently Asked Questions [PDF]
HOS Brochure [PDF]
Driver's Pocket Guide [PDF] [EspaŮol]
HOS Poster [PDF (5MB)]
Logbook Examples -- Coming Soon


HOS Regulatory Materials

Hours-of-Service Regulation
[High Resolution PDF (6 MB)] [Low Resolution PDF (800 KB)]
Regulatory Impact and Small Business Analysis -- Coming Soon
Finding of No Significant Impact (FONSI) -- Coming Soon
HOS Presentation -- Coming Soon




Summary of the New Hours-of-Service Regulations Effective October 1, 2005


The following table summarizes only the HOS rule changes. Be sure to consult the Driver's Brochure for a more complete explanation of HOS rules.

HOURS-OF-SERVICE RULES
2003 Rule
Property-Carrying CMV Drivers
Compliance Through 09/30/05 2005 Rule
Property-Carrying CMV Drivers
Compliance On & After 10/01/05
May drive a maximum of 11 hours after 10 consecutive hours off duty. NO CHANGE
May not drive beyond the 14th hour after coming on duty, following 10 consecutive hours off duty. NO CHANGE
May not drive after 60/70 hours on duty in 7/8 consecutive days.
A driver may restart a 7/8 consecutive day period after taking 34 or more consecutive hours off duty.
NO CHANGE
Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) drivers using a sleeper berth must take 10 hours off duty, but may split sleeper-berth time into two periods provided neither is less than 2 hours. CMV drivers using the sleeper berth provision must take at least 8 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth, plus 2 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth, off duty, or any combination of the two.
Passenger-carrying carriers/drivers are not subject to the new hours-of-service rules. These operations must continue to comply with the hours-of-service limitations specified in 49 CFR 395.5.

Short-Haul Provision
Drivers of property-carrying CMVs which do not require a Commercial Driver's License for operation and who operate within a 150 air-mile radius of their normal work reporting location:
May drive a maximum of 11 hours after coming on duty following 10 or more consecutive hours off duty.
Are not required to keep records-of-duty status (RODS).
May not drive after the 14th hour after coming on duty 5 days a week or after the 16th hour after coming on duty 2 days a week.
Employer must:
Maintain and retain accurate time records for a period of 6 months showing the time the duty period began, ended, and total hours on duty each day in place of RODS.

Drivers who use the above-described Short-haul provision are not eligible to use 100 Air-mile provision 395.1(e) or the current 16-hour exception in 395.1 (o).

Related Links
HOS News Release
Administrator Sandberg Remarks
2003 HOS Rule
ETA Package: Guide to Improving Highway Safety"




The main URL link to the information is

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations...os/hos-2005.htm

It seems that they have just outlawed the conventional short shift team operation by requiring that at least 8 consecutive hours in the sleeper out of the 10 instead of the 5 hours that they implemented in 2004.

Please check it out and see if you read it the same way I do.

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Aug 25 2005, 12:24 PM
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Don -
QUOTE
Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) drivers using a sleeper berth must take 10 hours off duty, but may split sleeper-berth time into two periods provided neither is less than 2 hours. CMV drivers using the sleeper berth provision must take at least 8 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth, plus 2 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth, off duty, or any combination of the two.
The answer to your question is, yes they have eliminated the standard team 5on/5off method of driving. Under the new rule a team would have to drive either 10on/10off - or you could drive 8 then take 2 hour off duty. That would give you a reset.

You can still split the 2 sleeper periods, according to their rules, but the split now has to be 8 hours and 2 hours. If you do that then the 2 hours sleeper period would still count towards your 14 hours on duty and only the 8 hour sleeper would not count.

So if you sleep 10 hours you start with a clean slate and have 14 hours available (assuming you're not out of your 60 or 70 hours).
If you sleep 9 hours - then go off duty for 1 hour, the 1 hour you're off duty counts towards your 14 hours of on duty time. So you have 13 hours left available when you start back to work.
If you sleep 8 hours - then go off duty for 2 hours, the 2 hours you're off duty count towards your 14 hours of on duty time. So you have 12 hours left available when you start back to work.

If you split the break - take a 8 hours sleeper, go on duty for 15 minutes and then go back to the sleeper for 2 hours, the 2 hours counts towards your 14 hours. In this case you would start counting your 14 hours from the end of your 8 hour sleeper break.

QUOTE
G-3. How does a driver who is utilizing the sleeper berth provision calculate his or her compliance with the 14-hour rule?
A sleeper-berth period of at least 8 consecutive hours is excluded from calculation of the 14-hour limitation. All other sleeper berth periods are included in the 14-hour calculation (unless part of a sleeper-berth/off-duty combination of 10 or more consecutive hours).


We are currently working on making the changes necessary to get the Log Master to comply with the new HOS regulations. Since this is again, from a programming standpoint, a major change in the way the program is going to interpret the rules it's going to require another major rewrite of the logic in the program. We will do our best to get an upgrade out by the end of Sept with the new rules in it.

Personally I don't see how this "enhances" safety and my comments on "road safety" remain the same as they've been for years -
Trucks account for 5,000 deaths a year on our highways
Drunks account for 65,000 deaths a year on our highways
Why are we not regulating DRUNKS???


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John Ewing
post Aug 26 2005, 12:11 PM
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Here's some additional information on the new HOS rules. I was talking with one of the major carriers at the truck show yesterday and he suggested that their team drivers would switch to an 8 on 8 off schedule. I didn't think that would work, but didn't tell him that as I wanted a little time to digest that concept. After thinking about it here's my comment - It won't work. The rule states -

© Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time
except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10
consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end
of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements
of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.

So if you work 8 on and 8 off. When you start your next drive you would be relying on 2 hours from the end of the previous sleeper period + the 8 hours in the current sleeper period to make your 10 hours. Since the calculation of the 14 hours starts at "the end of the first of the two periods" you would already have 8 hours on duty when you started your next shift. You would therefore only have 6 hours available to be on duty, and if you drove the first 8 hours would only have 3 hours available to drive.

There is, from what I can see at this point, no way around the 10 consecutive hours off - Driver 1 drives 8 while Driver 2 sleeps 8 then they both take 2 hours off-duty or in the sleeper. Now Driver 2 has 10 consecutive hours off-duty and
Driver 1 has the first 2 hours of his or her 10 and now goes to the sleeper to get the other 8 he or she needs. At the end of Driver 2's shift they just switch and Driver 1 goes back on duty with 14 available. Driver 2 goes to the sleeper and you start the cycle over again.

I'm open for comments - can anyone see a way around this that I'm missing?


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Don Jones
post Aug 27 2005, 10:38 PM
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I'd have to check it a little closer but it seems like you are correct.

I've heard from a union driver that he was told by the shop steward that it only applies to solo drivers, but don't have an official source for that.

I'll be contacting our state office of FMCSA for more details Monday.

Where did you get the quote that starts with "G3"?

Thanks.

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Aug 28 2005, 01:53 AM
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God I love unions blink.gif

I have read the entire rule and there is absolutely nothing in it that says it only applies to solo's. It's the new rule, for everyone. They have effectively ended the old method of team driving.

That quote comes from the FMCSA site in the FAQ's.


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Don Jones
post Aug 28 2005, 08:07 PM
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John,

Your 14 th hour rule discussion seems to be accurate but irrelevant to team driving of less than 10 on and 10 off because if you drive 8 hours, go in the sleeper for 8 hours and get up you only have 3 hours of driving available before you are over your allowed 11 hours w/o 10 hours off. (11 hours available driving time per shift minus the 8 hours you drove before going into the sleeper leaves 3 hours driving left before nedding 10 hours off duty to reset the shift/daily clock.)

Are John and i the only ones with opinions or input into this discussion?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've just been legislated out of business with approximately 40 days notice, because both my wife and I have conditions in our legs that prevent us from sitting for over 5 hours before we start having severe swelling and high risk of deep vein throbosis (blood clots). In fact our doctors really want us to drive less than 5 hours/shift.

Unless you can both consistently drive 10 hours at a stretch and sleep 10 hours at a stretch, they have just outlawed you from driving team!

What do you think about that? What about the fact that the LABOR Standards have for decades mandated frequent rest/meal breaks for health and safety reasons, but now you as drivers are now being forced to work unsafe hours by the very people who claim to be regulating your health and safety?

This has nothing to do with whether you are republican or democrat. Remember that the 2003 and 2005 HOS rules are a very watered down version of the social engineering that the Clinton administration tried to ram down our throats. The problem is NOT the elected/appointed upper echelon -- it is the career tenured bureaucrats that seem to be untouchable because of the Civil Service laws.

How long are we going to sit back like a herd of sheep and let them slaughter our way of life?

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Aug 28 2005, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE
Your 14 th hour rule discussion seems to be accurate but irrelevant to team driving of less than 10 on and 10 off because if you drive 8 hours, go in the sleeper for 8 hours and get up you only have 3 hours of driving available before you are over your allowed 11 hours w/o 10 hours off. (11 hours available driving time per shift minus the 8 hours you drove before going into the sleeper leaves 3 hours driving left before nedding 10 hours off duty to reset the shift/daily clock.)

Don, I think that's what I said in my "further information" post - you have to arrange it, as I did in that post, so you get 10 hours off at a time.
Driver 1 drives 8 then takes 2 off-duty (this is the first 2 of driver 1's 10hr break)
Driver 2 sleeps 8 then takes 2 off-duty (this gives driver 2 a 10 hr break)
Driver 1 goes to the sleeper for 8 (+ previous 2 = 10 hour break)
Driver 2 Drives 8 hours
Then you start the same senario over.

Here's a possibility for you -
Drive 4 hours and then take an hour off duty to move about and do whatever you need to to get your blood flowing again. The other driver is in the sleeper for this break.
Drive 4 more hours and then take another hour off-duty and the other driver can also take an hour off duty with you at that point.
You now have 10 hours on duty and 8 hours driving, the other driver has 10 hours sleeper/off-duty. Now the other driver takes over and does the same thing. Since the off duty hour in the middle doesn't count towards your 70 in 8 days, and since you'll be resetting your 14 with the 10 hours off-duty/sleeper combination each shift that should work.

So under current rules you could drive 5on/5off a maximum of 14 hours and your partner can do 10 hours in a 24 hour period - so you could potentially roll for 24 straight.
Under the new rules - if you drive 10on/10off you end up with a maximum of 24 hours also (but you do have to sit in the seat for 10 straight hours and I agree that is definitely less safe than 5&5 was).
If you use the Drive 8 Break 2 plan this would drop to 21 hours, so you do take a little hit in productive time, but not enough, I would think, to put you out of business.

I guess everyone else is still trying to figure out what we're talking about rolleyes.gif It takes awhile for the word to get out when things change - and then it's usually the wrong word that get's out first and loudest. But this post has been viewed 55 times - come on let's jump in with some other thoughts and opinions -


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Don Jones
post Aug 30 2005, 04:18 PM
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Boy, did I just discover a can of worms! In 2002 the NTSB issued a report that authorized states to set their own HOS rules at 12 hours driving, 16 hours on duty, 70 hours/week and a weekly clock reset rule for INTRASTATE DRIVERS ONLY. There are a whole bunch of states that adopted the variance.

For more infromation, go to http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/sr0201.pdf

OOIDA didn't even know about it and they are really excited about using it to challenge the current HOS rules. I stumbled accross it because my brother was telling me that Oregon had those HOS rules for their INTRASTATE drivers and iI mentione dit to Gary Green at OOIDA and he found the report and started reading it.

I'll keep you informed as I get more information.

Don Jones
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Don Jones
post Aug 30 2005, 05:36 PM
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THE INFORMATION ON VARIANCE TO hos RULES IS FOUND ON PAGES 5 THROUGH 11.

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Aug 30 2005, 06:47 PM
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Currently the states are not being sued by these idiot 4 wheeler groups who are bugging the FMCSA about changing the rules. That's what has caused all this rule changing in the first place. Intrastate is governed by the state not the feds, so the states can do whatever they want - till the goodie two-shoes start getting after them - then you'll see them changing their rules to because this very vocal few are out there harranging them.

When they put key pads in every car to stop drunks from being able to start their cars, then I'll start giving some thought to truck safety. Till then this is all be big joke anyway and the truckers, unfortunately, are the ones who have to pay the price for it.


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wofford
post Sep 2 2005, 07:12 PM
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I agree with Don and John (yeah, I'm a John, too) that the new HOS rules will wreak havoc with sleeper team shifts. Who is the brilliant mind behind this move? OOIDA plans to lobby against the new rules because of the sleeper berth idiocy. We have one sleeper team (husband/wife) and they are just now learning to deal with the old (new) rules.
I'm really interested in how the new log checker is going to handle this.
I attempted to read the entire law as recorded into the Federal Register, but it was over five thousand words and included numerous studies and comments and I kind of fell by the wayside. What chaps my backside is the amount of money spent to write those five thousand words and to conduct those studies, all for a very minor rule change that nobody really wants anyways.
Just proves my point that the regulators have lost all point of contact with the reality of the industries they attempt to regulate, and instead concentrate their energies towards justification of their bureaucratic existence.
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Don Jones
post Sep 8 2005, 08:52 PM
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John,

Maybe you should combine the posting under SLEEPER TEAMS BEWARE with this thread.

WE FINALLY GOT SOMEONE TO RESPOND BESIDES YOU AND I!!

On the matter of OOIDA's response, the lastest that I heard from them was that they had filed a request with DOT to reconsider the new rule and would be waiting that out.

The problem I have with that approach is that it will take months if DOT even does anything on it. In the meantime, all of us people who run sleeper team and can't work a 10 on-10 off in some form or other will be out of business!

Members of OOIDA, please call in to them and strongly request immediate legal action. This is something that demands immediate legal action to protect our members from the government. No one forced the members leased to the various carriers that OOIDA has sued to lease on with them and no one forced the members who were surcharged for using credit cards to purchase fuel to use a credit card or to buy from Flying J and the other truckstop chains that OOIDA sued, so why are they so relucent to sue the government to protect us from something that we have no choice or other defense from?

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Sep 8 2005, 11:11 PM
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Don - good suggestion - the post has been moved to this thread (it's right above your suggestion now).

On your OOIDA comment, that's a question that you should ask them, but I'd guess that you have to have some basis to file a restraining order and right now they don't have something concrete that they can use. It takes time to develop that type of a case. Remember - that's my GUESS - not something I was told or heard.


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Don Jones
post Sep 9 2005, 04:04 PM
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They are taking a wait and see approach to what they hope is going to be a revolt by the states refusing to enforce the rule, but I don't have much faith in that. the sates may be talking big now, but when they sit down on 9-28-05 with FMCSA at the CVSA meeting and get threatened with loosing their highway funds and hear Ms. Sanberg's direct statementthat the new rule applies to both the solo and sleeper teams, things will probably change.

Don Jones
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Guest_hiob_*
post Sep 14 2005, 06:20 PM
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Here is my opinion. First, nobody understand those rules anymore. Truckers are truckers, because they are not rocket scientists, nor brain surgeonís. Rules so difficult to understand are missing the point. Second, I donít start my day 6 AM. Most of the time it is late afternoon or evening. Iím not sleepy after 10 hours, but earlier and I have no time for 10 hours brake. At 3 or 4 AM I need a 4-5 hours brake. I donít understand why some idiot in Washington have to tell me when Iím sleepy and when not. Iím driving truck in USA since 1982, with several more years overseas. I average 150 k miles yearly and never have accident. Not because I follow DOT rules, but because I cheat on them all the time.

I know is difficult to imagine for them, that we can drive 600 or 700 miles straight, but it is difficult for me to imagine someone can run a mile, not mentioning marathon distance. I cannot run 200 yards. I guess practice makes perfect..

One more thing. 34 hours rule. Most of the time I start my break in the morning. (Iím in the air freight, we usually run nights). After 24 hours Iím well restet, but I cannot do anything. Have to wait till evening and drive at night again, when I have to fait sleepiness. Idiots again know better, than my biological clock, when Iím sleepy.

I have young children and safety is important to me. When I feel, that is dangerous to drive, I pull over and take a nap. Regardless of DOT regulations. I think most drivers do like I do. Otherwise, if we follow their regulations religiously, we all be dead by now. And they know about this, Iím sure. That why we are allowed to keep paper logs. So we can cheat. And everybody is happy. Well, sort of.

Biggest problem however are rates. I lease my truck, getting $1,00 per mile. If I log everything like DOT rules tell me, I wouldnít make enough money to make truck payment. I should be able to work 40 hours per week if I choose so and still have money left over for living. If I decided to work 60-70 hrs week it should be bonus. Now I work 80-100 hours, because I have no choice. With truck payment of $2500 per month, shop rates approaching $100/hour, engine overhaul bill of over $20 000 etc, etc, how can I be profitable? No wonder everybody are looking for a drivers.

Sometimes I wonder, who is bigger idiot. My representative in DC or me, doing this stupid job. Is difficult to change profession after doing something for over 25 years, but looks like I will have no choice.

I know I'm not quite on subject here, but I get here ďby chanceĒ surfing net and I have to let my steam go somehow. Another frustrated day. Joy of driving is gone for good. Now I only count years to retirement, if I ever make it. But dead is probably better option than hell in truck with those "helping rules" from my beloved government.
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John Ewing
post Sep 14 2005, 09:47 PM
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You're welcome to vent here anytime you want, and there are a lot of people who agree with you.


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John Ewing
post Sep 15 2005, 11:35 AM
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For anyone who wants to know exactly what the rule says, here's the complete sleeper berth requirement -

QUOTE
g) Sleeper berths--(1) Property-carrying commercial motor
vehicle--(i) In General. A driver who operates a property-carrying
commercial motor vehicle equipped with a sleeper berth, as defined in
Sec. Sec. 395.2 and 393.76 of this subchapter, (A) Must, before
driving, accumulate
(1) At least 10 consecutive hours off duty;
(2) At least 10 consecutive hours of sleeper-berth time;
(3) A combination of consecutive sleeper-berth and off-duty time
amounting to at least 10 hours; or
(4) The equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty if the
driver does not comply with paragraph (g)(1)(i)(A)(1), (2), or (3) of
this section;
(B) May not drive more than 11 hours following one of the 10-hour
off-duty periods specified in paragraph (g)(1)(i)(A)(1) through (4) of
this section; and
© May not drive after the 14th hour after coming on duty
following one of

[[Page 50072]]

the 10-hour off-duty periods specified in paragraph (g)(1)(i)(A)(1)
through (4) of this section; and
(D) Must exclude from the calculation of the 14-hour limit any
sleeper berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours.
(ii) Specific requirements.--The following rules apply in
determining compliance with paragraph (g)(1)(i) of this section:
(A) The term ``equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off
duty'' means a period of (1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive
hours in a sleeper berth, and
(2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive
hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination
thereof.
(B) Calculation of the 11-hour driving limit includes all driving
time; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the
two periods used to comply with paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this
section.
© Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any
sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours;
compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two
periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A)
of this section.


So what's it mean?
EVERYTHING except a sleeper break of at least 8 hours but less than 10 hours counts towards your 14 hours on duty. A sleeper or off-duty of 10 or more hours resets your 14.

If you use the split break your drive time is also not reset until you get the additional 2 hour break which you need to get a reset. Once you get this your 14 & 11 drive time are both reset to the end of the 8 hour sleeper period. Before you get it the additional 2 hours your 14 and 11 both include the hours before and after the 8 hour sleeper.

The net result is that the only practical way to work is to do 10 hour shifts, 10 on 10 off, or if you're a team to use the senario given above for the 8 hour drives with a mutual 2 hour break at the end of every 16 hours.


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Guest_Jon Q Driver_*
post Sep 15 2005, 11:50 AM
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I don't know about everyone else but my wife and I are just going to have to run 2 log books and keep working our 5 on 5 off - I'm not going to kill myself running 10 straight hours in the seat.

What idiot thinks I'm going to get "remm sleep" in the back of a bouncing truck tongue.gif

These idiots need to get out of their ivory towers and come out here on the road before they tell us how to run our lives.
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John Ewing
post Sep 15 2005, 06:28 PM
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Obviously I cann't suggest or encourage you to break the rules - but, as a former team driver myself, I can certainly understand your sentiments. I don't believe that I would be a safer driver at the end of a 10 hour shift no matter how much "break" I had before I got in the seat. I also don't see this quality sleep they're talking about happening in the back of a moving truck, but I don't make the rules, I just help people comply with them.


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Don Jones
post Sep 18 2005, 02:59 AM
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I got a reply from OOIDA about their choice of actions that they obviously think makes snse to them but it still winds up being doing nothing to attempt to block the rule, only trying to get the rule changed AFTER it has put all of the small team operators out of business. They are looking long range and loosing sight of the fact that without immediate help, there will be NO LONG range concerns for us small team operators because we will be out of business longbefore their longterm fix is even considered, much less implemented.

I will just have to find a way to cheat around it, even though I don't want to. Our government forces us into situaitons where we have to choose between survival and becoming outlaws.

Don Jones
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