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> Claiming Pov
Kathy Jo
post Jun 14 2007, 05:25 AM
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We are owner operators that are leased.
We drop the trailer at the yard (no longer under dispatch) and go home.
We are home for a few days, and service our own truck at home, do we have to log the miles traveled home and back to the trailer?
Can this action be claimed as POV?

Thanks for the info.
Kathy JO
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John Ewing
post Jun 14 2007, 01:13 PM
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There is no question that those miles would be personal miles for logging purposes. For IFTA it's a probably personal, but the arguement could be made that you were taking the truck home for service (the same argument that's used when you take it to a dealer for service). That would be a call for the person doing the IFTA audit.

It would depend on the distance whether the effort of seperating them out would be worth it or not. For Mo, the tax is $0.17/gal. So if you drove 100 miles round trip and you're truck get's 6mpg IFTA would be $2.83. If you do that once a month it may not be worth the effort, but if you do it once a week it might. That's a call you'd need to make.

To track personal miles in the program you need to add a new state to your IFTA table - I'd use PM for Personal Miles, and then just assign any personal miles traveled to that state in the Mileage section. Remember ALL MILES must be accounted for, so you still need to enter those miles into the program.


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Don Jones
post Jun 26 2007, 01:37 PM
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POV miles is a can of worms that I have argued my way through repeatedly with both Hours of Service auditors and IFTA auditors. I'll share what knowledge I gained from the arguments.

First, according to the Washington State IFTA auditor's office, there is no such thing as POV miles for an IFTA vehicle. IFTA concerns only the fuel tax due on the fuel burned by that vehicle and does NOT distinguish between various types of usage EXCEPT verified OFF ROAD use, which is entirely separate from POV usage. So for IFTA purposes, you need to account for those miles under the state they are ran in.

Second, the issue of POV miles for an HOURS FOR SERVICE/DOT audit only becomes an issue if (1) you have your own authority - if you run under someone else's authority they are responsible for the DOT record keeping - and (2) you are audited within 6 months of the date they were driven because that is how long you must keep the Records of Duty Status. The real issue is NOT POV miles but is actually about the recording of duty status during those miles, just like DOT doesn't care if you are loaded, empty or bobtailing when you are driving. Federal HOS guideline define ON DUTY as ANY time spent doing ANYTHING that benefits the carrier. It seems very clear to me that driving the tractor to the place where it will be serviced, whether at a shop or at your own facility, is benefiting the carrier, so that time would be properly logged as ON DUTY - DRIVING and likewise the time a driver spends servicing the tractor or waiting at a service facility for them to service it is properly logged as ON DUTY - NOT DRIVING.

If you are running under someone else's authority, you are probably running under their IFTA also and need to ask them what they want you to do since they are the ones that will be answering to the auditors.

The way I handle POV miles for our records is I record them on the mileage records as POV miles in the Routing section of MILEAGE. For instance, I show dropped trailer @ xxx for the ROUTING entry and then enter rehooked trailer @xxx for the end of the POV trip and make a note POV MILES too. That way if DOT audits us within 6 months, I can explain why there were miles shown during that period when the driver(s) was logging OFF DUTY.

If you are using routing or PROMILES, then you just show your trip from whereever to your yard and then show the next trip originating at your yard. Then every so often, usually at the end of each quarter, you run APPORTION to make the ending hub in the MILEAGE records match the actual hub reading on the tractor. Most of the larger companies that I'm familiar with don?t seem to even worry about making the 2 hub readings match. I don't know how they get away with it and don't really care because it is just easier to account for them some way -- either like we do or by using the apportion method.

It isn't going to make any real difference on the IFTA because all dropping those miles will do is to reduce the total miles ran for that period and the mile sin that state BUT the fuel purchased will still be the same only now your MPG will be fractionally lower. Unless you run a lot of POV miles the difference will be so small you won't notice it. For instance, if you run 10,000 miles per month and 1,667 gallons of fuel you actual MPG will be 5.9988002 (that is as far out as my calculator goes) but if you ran 100 of those miles POV and deducted them from your total miles then your actual MPG would be 9,900 miles divided by 1,667 gallons for 5.9388122. Since IFTA rounds off to the closes one-hundredth that will be a difference of .06 MPG. All that is going to do is to change slightly how the fuel tax gets allotted to various states and probably won't make over $0.50 or less in difference in your total fuel tax owed.


I hope this helps.

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Jun 27 2007, 01:24 AM
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Don's comments on the futulity of trying to deduct Personal Miles for IFTA purposes is one I've long held and which I've expressed in other posts on this topic.

On the log side of the issue I would disagree with Don - the purpose of the drive to/from the house is to get some time off. As such you are off-duty once you drop the trailer and the drive home can be considered Personal Use and as such not be logged. If while you're off you take the truck to have it serviced - those miles would be logged as On Duty Driving - if the truck is already at the place of service, then there is no drive time. The time spent servicing it however should be logged as On Duty Not Driving as clearly servicing the vehicle is for the benefit of the company.


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Don Jones
post Jun 27 2007, 03:21 PM
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John,

The flaw in your thinking about the miles to and from home being personal use is that the regs specify that you must be relieved of duty and return to duty at the same place, not be relieved of duty at the yard drive home, then go on duty at home for awhile, go off duty for another while, then drive back to the yard and then return to duty for a second time back at the yard.

The other disagreement between our way of thinking and DOT/law enforcement's way of thinking is that they consider getting rest incidental to anything that might benefit the company - in this case getting the tractor serviced. They would argue that it is immaterial who is servicing the tractor or where, the tractor is being taken to a service facility. I think you would agree that if they went to the yard, dropped the trailer and bob-tailed to the dealership to have the tractor serviced, left the tractor at the shop and took time off, then returned to the dealership to pick the tractor up before returning to the yard, then the time driving to and from the dealership/shop are ON-DUTY DRIVING hours, wouldn't you, because they were actually relieved of duty at the dealership rather than the yard. Law enforcement would argue that their going home, taking time off, then servicing the tractor, taking time off and then returning to the yard is the same thing.

The other thing is that the regs specify a short distance to go to motels and restaurants. They do not mention going home and then servicing the tractor, even incidentally to taking time off. The other killer is the question of where do they usually "garage"/park the tractor. If they routinely take the tractor home every time they take time off at home, then law enforcement would argue that their actual normal place of being released from duty and returning to duty is where they usually park the tractor -- not where they park the trailer.

Actually if they communicate with the carrier for purposes of payroll/settlement and/or dispatch, then they are going on duty at home just like when they work on the truck at home.

The main killer ISN'T in what you do but what in you say you did. An often cited example is you spend the night in a truckstop and log a short time OFF-DUTY for eating showering or what ever, then go into the sleeper for several hours including the time the Super Bowl was on and then come out of the sleeper back to OFF-DUTY for another short time just like you normally would. Everything is cool but you get your log checked later and the officer thinks that you were actually in watching the Super Bowl instead of in the sleeper. The officer asks you, "Did you see that interception by Montana?" and without thinking you say "YEAH, wasn't that something!" You have just told him you were not in the sleeper but in the lounge watching TV unless you have a real good explanation how you could be in sleeper and watching the game at the same time, like a TV in the sleeper, a replay on the news while eating breakfast, watched in on your computer or what ever.

Another thing that many people forget is the regs do not say anything about sleeping -- they just say "resting" in the sleeper. Likewise, the regs don't say anything about getting rest while OFF-DUTY for 10 hours. You could theoretically spend 10 hours in the casino gambling and legally get back into the truck and drive. Once again the killer is in the details if you get checked because of how you are driving or getting into an accident. While you are legal so far as the log book issue goes, you are illegal and just plain wrong for driving impaired by fatigue. The same applies for spending the night in sleeper but not being able to sleep. You have fulfilled the HOS requirements but are still out of service and legally wrong if you are fatigued enough to affect your ability to SAFELY drive. That is one of the best arguments against HOS rules in the first place, they do NOT ensure proper rest for relieving fatigue or improving the health and/or safety of the driver, which are the 2 stated reasons for having HOS rules in the first place, but that argument is rejected by the government and most judges.

Getting back to the main original question, my advice is for IFTA purposes just leave the miles in the mix BUT identify them as POV miles so that they match the logs IF your are DOT/HOS checked. Then figure out some explanation for how you got the tractor serviced without revealing that you did it or had it done at home. If you have enough hours available then just log the miles as NO DUTY- DRIVING. If not then just show that you serviced the tractor BEFORE you drove home. What most people, including law enforcement often times, forget is that the HOS rules do NOT limit how many hours you can WORK, just when you can drive. You can come in at hit 70 hours 10 minutes after you get to the yard/terminal and then work another 15 hours on the tractor without being in violation, just as long as you have had 10 hours off and NOW have less than 70 hours in the last 7 days BEFORE you start driving again.

I apologize for the lengths of these posts but lawyers take days preparing arguments from both sides of the question about alleged HOS violations.

BE SAFE, both in your driving AND in your logging!

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Jun 28 2007, 01:17 AM
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So how about we agree to disagree unsure.gif

I always logged off duty once the trailer was dropped for the miles from the trailer drop to home and back to get the trailer.
When it was time to get back to work I'd call and find out where to head (get dispatched) and then I'd go pick up the trailer, log back on-duty and start driving. I didn't log back on duty to make a phone call. Never had that questioned and I know the carrier I hauled for was audited and I'm sure I would have heard if it had been questioned.

I dropped the trailer one week-end, while a company driver, and drove over 200 miles to the place we wanted to spend the weekend and back - also logged that as off-duty. The distance has nothing to do with it - if you don't have a trailer and if you are using the vehicle for "personal use" then you're off-duty.

Since the truck is owned by the owner/operator and whether it is or isn't maintianed is of no interest to the company - the arguement could be made that servicing it is not on-duty time at all since the work performed is of no interest to the company.

If you run your own authority it's a different story - you then are the company - but if you're a leased o/o then the maintenance of your truck is for your personal benefit, not that off the company. Again, from experience, when I was having the truck serviced, I went off-duty and stayed off-duty until I got the truck back.

That's just my point of view on the topic so that readers can hear both sides of the story and make up their own minds on how they want to handle it rolleyes.gif


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Don Jones
post Jun 28 2007, 02:06 AM
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I think we always agree to disagree between us, don't we John?

Your examples about the phone call and servicing as a company driver are perfect examples of it isn't what you did but what you tell them you did that gets you into trouble. The auditors have no way to know whether you got your dispatch at home or after you hooked back up to the trailer. The 200 mile off duty bobtail is another example, they didn't know wher yu went unless you told them.

One error in your argument about servicing a Leased O/O tractor not being the interest of the carrier is flawed because while the carrier makes you provide the maintanence, the DOT regs are very clear about it is the authority holder who is responsible for making sure the tractor is properly maintained regardless of who actually provides the maintanence, therefore getting it serviced is in the interest of the carrier, because running poorly maintained equipment can cause the carrier to loose its authority.

Once again, what we have all done and gotten away with doesn't mean it is legal or morally right. But like you said, let them hear both points of view and make their choices remembering that they are the ones who will reap the consequences of their choices. Every day at some point I choose to cut a corner or two, but if I get caught then it is my own fault.

Hope you are both enjoying your time away from the office.

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Jun 28 2007, 02:43 AM
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I always enjoy arguing with you Don rolleyes.gif

If I had more time I'd get into some real detail, but I'm really pressed this week, doing Professional Services all week with a customer so working 9 to 6 with them then doing this in the evening. Maybe I'll come back and do more on this antoher time.


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cnieters
post Jun 28 2007, 06:14 AM
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Well, I just had to add my 2 cents worth...lol.

Here is an excerpt from the FMCSA regulatory guidance on HOS.

Question 26: If a driver is permitted to use a CMV for personal reasons, how must the driving time be recorded?

Guidance: When a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, time spent traveling from a driver's home to his/her terminal (normal work reporting location), or from a driver's terminal to his/her home, may be considered off-duty time. Similarly, time spent traveling short distances from a driver's en route lodgings (such as en route terminals or motels) to restaurants in the vicinity of such lodgings may be considered off-duty time. The type of conveyance used from the terminal to the driver's home, from the driver's home to the terminal, or to restaurants in the vicinity of en route lodgings would not alter the situation unless the vehicle is laden. A driver may not operate a laden CMV as a personal conveyance. The driver who uses a motor carrier's CMV for transportation home, and is subsequently called by the employing carrier and is then dispatched from home, would be on-duty from the time the driver leaves home.


I agree with John, in that once you are relieved of duty, you are off duty driving home, to a motel or 200 miles to visit family or whatever. I also agree with Don, in that you are on duty not driving if you perform any work related to the business, leased or O/O. You servicing the truck at home puts you on duty for that service time. It does not include the time you drove home for your time off. You must also log On Duty Not Driving if you do any work for compensation for anyone when you are not on douty with your company.

Don, do you log all your time doing paperwork, talking to your broker and any other time you spend doing your company business? This could wreek havoc on that 70 hour rule and 34 hour restarts! Was just wondering how you handle it, since I start running under my own authority the first of july.

This post has been edited by cnieters: Jun 28 2007, 06:16 AM


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Barb
post Aug 7 2007, 03:38 AM
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Good Luck Chuck!

I would also like to know if Don logs all his paperwork/business time.

I don't think you would get much driving time done if you were logging all the time spent on paperwork, talking to brokers, learning how to do the paperwork, learning all the rules and doing all of the accounting/taxes & not to even mention maintenance.

Barb

This post has been edited by Barb: Aug 7 2007, 03:39 AM
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frtlnrblues
post Aug 7 2007, 12:17 PM
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ph34r.gif The way I see it!!! Rules were made to be bent!!!
We all have a lttle different ways of doing things, as lond as we try to stay in the grey area, all is well!
I don't ever recall BIG BROTHER watching me(OR HELPING FOR THAT MATER!) change my oil, grease my equipment, clean it, paper work or whatever!
As long as I'm home, what I'm doing is my buisness!
Off Duty gone fishing...... blink.gif Bobtail to the do it yourself trk wash, or go to an amusement park , go on a pick nik to enjoy the day on some lay over!!!
No big deal!This is suppose to be a free country, (with limitations of course!) wink.gif
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Don Jones
post Aug 11 2007, 03:42 AM
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To EVERYONE following the FORUMS -- I do NOT necessarily follow my own advice. There is often a great difference between the correct and "legal" way to do something and the way I actually do it. John can verify this because I often find unusually or even incorrect ways to use TH to do what I want it to do. Having said that, I will NOT advise anyone to do something that may get him or her in trouble if they get caught, even if it is the way that I do it. There is a big difference between taking a chance knowing you are taking a chance and blindly taking the same chance unknowingly.

A perfect example happened to me last week. I needed to change from steel inner and outer wheels to run steel inner and aluminum outer wheels. I called my usual source of tire/wheel advice and was told by the technician that all I had to do was to change the inner nuts to longer ones to allow for the thicker aluminum outer wheel, so that is what I did. Unfortunately he forgot to tell me that I first had to insure that the inner stud stuck through PAST the aluminum outer wheel so that the inner nut/thimble was supported where the outer nut clamped over it. The end result was that I sheared off all of the inner nuts and lost an aluminum wheel. Fortunately, it didn't hit anyone, but I didn't see it come off and never found it.

On the top of any question about logging, make sure that what ever you log is backed up by EVERY piece of paper trail that exists and even more importantly make sure that what you say to the officer matches your logs. If you say that you were in the sleeper and do NOT HAVE a TV in your sleeper, DO NOT say anything about something you saw on the TV in the driver?s lounge or somewhere else.

Also, there is a great deal of difference in what is leagal and what the officer is going to let you do. According to the interpretation, a driver could be reduced from duty at his ?home? terminal in Miami, FL and bobtail home to Seattle, WA, but I?m sure that no officer is going to let you log that as ?Off-Duty?.

Likewise, the ergs and interpretations say that neither the driver or carrier need to maintain a RECORD OF DUTY STATUS (the legal name for logs) while the driver is engaged in direct assistance to emergency relief operations, but see what happens if you show up in a weigh station with three days missing out of you log book because you were hauling FIRE EMERGENCY fire retardant. In fact 49CFR390.23 clearly states that the driver and carrier are both relieved from parts 390 through 399 while engaging in direct emergency relief assistance, but what do you think is going to happen if you try to run through a weigh station with a flat tire and tell the officer, I don?t have to worry about it because the requirement to not have flat tires is included in the parts of the regs that I?m relieved of.

Clearly the law says you don?t have to comply with lighting, or other equipment regulations contained within parts 390 through 399, but you can bet the farm on the officer shutting you down if you have an out of service violation of the very regs that you are relieved from following.

Oh, FYI, I was hauling fire retardant for 3 days last week and have gotten a different opinion on what to do about logs. The real killer though on that issue is once you go back to normal operations, then the HOS regs apply and you are now required to have the last 8 days of logs with you even though you weren?t required to keep them while you were doing emergency relief hauling. If you can figure that out and make sense of it, you are doing better than I am. Fortunately I?m able to log all of the documented work time and miles within the limits of the HOS rules and there is NO WAY to disprove my logs accuracy.

Sorry about the length of this post, but is it?s a complicated area and I?ve been neglecting the FORUMS for a while and I?m making up for it.

Everyone have a great weekend.

Don Jones
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John Ewing
post Aug 11 2007, 10:09 AM
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Don - I've never done it, but I would log the 3 days that you worked on emergency relief as Off-Duty and then put a note in the remarks sections stating:
EMERGENCY RELIF WORK

I would then log the mile in the mileage section as normal, but leave them off my logs so I'd still have the miles for IFTA reporting.

On the safety inspection issue - I believe that as long as you can prove your on Emergency Relief Work that they would probably not stop you unless the violation was a clear safety issue. A flat time would be a clear safety issue - a burned out clearance light probably wouldn't. But you're also right, it's a judgement call - so it would depend on the individual officer.

Is your "advice" man getting you a new rim and tire unsure.gif Often when we answer a question or give advice to someone we "assume" that he know something and seems obvious to us. I've learned over the years that the saying about assume -
that it makes an ass out of u & me - is right on the mark. Most of the time I avoid assuming - but ever now and then I fall into the trap and it invariably bites me blink.gif


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Don Jones
post Aug 11 2007, 02:48 PM
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I agree with your position on the safety inspection BUT the point was the law says you are relieved of the safety regs but as I tell youngsters -- gosh it hurts to be using that tem, it clearly labels me as a mature senior citizen -- "A cop can do any thing he/she wants to until a judge tells him he went to far. He has a badge, a gun, and even more important a radio to call his buddies to back him up. If he shoots you, what good is it going to do you if his buddies arrest him and even if the judge sentences him? You will still have been shot!

In our case it is even worse, if he puts you out of service for even a trumped up charge and you move that truck/trailer then he has you righteously for violating an out of service order which is probably more serious that a log falsification even. Plus you will never get back the time you lost, even if you win an appeal of the out of service order.

The same thing with resisting arrest. The original arrest doesn't have to be valid or charges even filed to convict you with resisting arrest, which is a felony in every jurisdiction that I know of.

Don Jones
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Don Jones
post Aug 11 2007, 03:03 PM
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On the logs issue, I might do that, but the best advice I've received from officers is to leave the grid blank and write in the comment section "working emergency relief per 390.23 - relieved of RODS requirement" and keep a copy of the BOL clearly marked as Emergency cargo. The killer on keeping any kind of records for hours worked is then they go against your 60/70 rule.

This time I can make it look legal for the trips I ran and I've had over 34 hours off-duty so the total won't hurt me.

Don Jones
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cnieters
post Aug 12 2007, 06:44 AM
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Thanks Barb,

So far I'm holding my own. My GF holds down the fort in the office, shes the one really learning, the industry, the regs, paperwork, TruckersHelper, accounting/taxes, ect. Compared to that, my job is easy! Ok, I'm still learning all that too. But shes the one doin it while I run the truck.

Don,

I use the same tactic myself, Do as I say, not as I do...lol Are you registered with FEMA or did you gett the "emergency" work through your broker? I'd like to get into doin some of the emergency stuff. Just haven't figured out how to/who to contact to get started.


Chuck


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Don Jones
post Aug 12 2007, 07:02 PM
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Our broker has a connection with the supplier of the retardant and we haul between their plant, their warehouses, their local base/shop and the different fire bases. Only the fire base destinations are "emergency" hauls. If we are just prepostioning equipment/supplies/retardant between their differnt warehouses or just stockpiling retardant, it isn't "emergency" work.

When we are hauling equipment and/or supplies-fire retardant to a fire there is no question that it is an emergency relief direct assistance. But according to the shipper, when we are returning "demobilized" equipment/supplies or retardant back to their warehouse/base it isn't. However, according to 390.23 returning empty is still covered and the interpretations that FMSCA posts on their website, returning crews, equipment and/or supplies is unladen/empty.

I don' t know how to get the FEMA stuff directly through FEMA. My understanding is that unless it is comming from a government warehouse, either the shipper or receiver arranges the frieght. Usually the FEMA people jujst coordinate and pay for things. BUT I could be wrong. Contact FEMA and ask them. Please let me know what you find out because it usually pays very well.

The way the reg 390.23 reads the only role the government plays is in declaring an emergency and if the shipper/receiver or casrrier says the cargo is going to be used in direct support of the emergency relief effort, then the load is exempt from 390 through 399. It is pretty much up to the officer to either believe the paperwork you have or not to.

Have a great weekend -- what is left of it.

Don Jones
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frtlnrblues
post Aug 12 2007, 07:10 PM
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Don,
You were lucky, But I'd be looking for another wheel man!
Anybody that knows anything about duals knows you don't mix the two, nor is it a good idea chemically wise, aluminum and steel are not a good marriage!
I ran alot of hurricane relief during the last few windys, we had fuel given to us, didn't have to worry about IFTA but it did make it a little hairy at report time!
Kept all our doc, no fuel reciepts, they would fuel us while we slept, no idea on the amount, we were also exempt from tolls. scales weight etc. etc. we would go through the scales with our window decals and kept on trucking.,
Keep up the good work! laugh.gif
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Don Jones
post Jan 29 2008, 08:34 PM
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I'm trying to document an answer for a company driver who is being told that the FMCSA regulations -- not the company's policy -- require a driver to log driving time for any time he/she moves a CMV regardless of whether the reason is personal or for the company.

cnieters (chuck) posted a quote dealing specifically with this question on June 27, 2007, BUT I can't find the regulation number that it relates to. Can someone please refer me to the correct regulation number so that I can download the original interpretation?

Thank you.

Don Jones

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John Ewing
post Jan 29 2008, 09:25 PM
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Don - copy a part of the article Chuck posted and then paste it into Google. That will find the answer for you.


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